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  MSNBC    Morning Joe    News/Business. Interviews with newsmakers  
   and politicians; host Joe Scarborough. New.  

    July 4, 2011
    6:00 - 9:00am EDT  

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duracell. trusted everywhere. due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised. they openly declared war against each other. they are preparing themselves for battle. >> you have inmates names and numbers. why? >> because they're my homies. >> the guys i talked to said you are not going to be able to do anything about it. they will retaliate.
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>> make sure you check everything. use the mallettes, the metal detectors, the mirrors. check every single thing. they know where to hide. >> when they come out, they come out in their boxers and shower suits only. no watches. no rings. nothing else. everything else stays in their cells. one thing we learned was the inmates said what they are doing is taking their shanks to the cage. they are taking them out of their shoes and putting them on the floor. what we are doing today is
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following up on what occurred on level 6 last week. several members overpowered an officer in the recreation area, took the keys from her and stabbed a rival member numerous times. as a result of that, we initiated shake downs. we completed level 6 yesterday. we are headed to level 5 to conduct interviews to see if there's follow up information or weapons over here to see if the assaults are going to continue. if any assaults are going to occur, the likelihood is it might occur in this unit. the inmates have the opportunity for activity. they can come out of their cells, so if there's going to be retaliation, it's possible it would happen here. >> this is where it all starts off.
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what they do is come over here, right here. they will start working it. working it. take a piece how big they want it. they work it and work it until it cuts into the metal. whatever they get toothpaste and soap, mix it up and layer it. anytime you come in here, they can see this and cover it up. two pieces that were used, came from here. that's why they started doing this. this is contraband now. >> although level 6 is on lockdown, we're allowed to talk to one inmate about the toll the new restrictions are taking. >> i haven't been able to visit
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with my sister or mother because of this thing that happened in the separate housing unit. it was two other inmates, had nothing to do with me. so,itis not right. it's a nuisance. it's annoying because i don't behave in a way that merits my suspension of privileges, visits, or do a lot of other guys for that matter but yet we're being punished collectively. two weeks ago, they came and took away our nail clippers. we weren't allowed access except on sunday night. if we needed to cut our nails, the corrections officer would give them to us and then take them back. we weren't allowed to have them in our cells. they came and took them without no explanation. if i act out and create problems, then i earned this. it's not my problem something is happening somewhere else. i didn't do anything to anybody
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and nobody did anything to me. >> after hours of searching, they find the first clue that gang violence may be imminent at the level 5 facility. >> chosen now o great god, those who must be killed and taken alive through sacrifice to drink their heart's blood. we beg you smile upon those that will die on this field or on your alter. the choice of which, you are is entirely up to you. what this is, it's a prayer of war. it's not very often that you find a prayer from a gang member or a specific gang preparing themselves for battle. this is something unique. we know they are preparing themselves for battle. they are giving us enough information to let us know
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something is coming down the road. it's imminent. we're trying to see who is who and what is what and identify sleeper gang members out there in the compound. identify them so we know who they are and see if we can stop a future assault. >> violent incidents like the recent gang stabbing in level 6, simply adds to the tension already felt in the supermax facility, especially for michael dailey. he spent five years under protective custody for his own safety. >> they call me happy because the last laughs are always on me. i have been living in level 6 since i got incarcerated in april of 2003. i'm here involuntary protective custody. the institution says there's a threat against my life.
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in my case, that's why i was in level 6. that's all i'm going to say about that. that's why i was in level 6. >> there's a story there, huh? >> there's a lot of stories. i'm happy to say it out there, but not in here. this is a big week for me. i'm getting released into the community. i'm surprised i made it this far. the stuff that i've seen and the stuff that i've been through, i'm just real thanks to god that i'm making it out, alive. i'm happy to get out. i'm really happy, but scared. i'm scared to get out. i really am. i don't want to hurt the people i love the most. that's why i'm scared. >> how would you hurt them? >> i don't want to come back here. because coming here hurts my family. before i came here, i never
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looked at it that way until after doing eight years. that's what i'm scared of. i don't want to hurt nobody anymore. i'm about to make a phone call now. i'm about to call my mom and let her know the good news and i'm coming home and if she could come pick me up. hey, guess what? you can come pick me up friday after 4:00. >> 4:30. >> after 4:30. she's all happy. wow! and are you going to bring me some clothes, right? yeah. i'm happy, too, mom. i'm going to make this quick and make sure that you come on friday after -- at 4:00, that way you can be waiting there for me. i love you and i'll see you soon. okay. bye. four more days and a wake up and i'll be home.
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i'm going home to my mother. i'm going to parole over there. everybody is happy. i'm just really scared. still ahead, happy is what they call short to the door. he's not a free man, yet. >> you never know what's going to happen. >> plus, the threat of a gang attack wears on staff. >> it's taking it's toll. fredrico files for on out of state transfer. he's not the only one. >> it's irrelevant. president oy are politics at its worst. the republicans have opposed economic reforms at every turn. and now they have a plan that would essentially end medicare for future retirees... slash education... while giving huge tax breaks to big oil and the wealthy. we can't rebuild america if they tear down the middle class. priorities usa action is responsible for the content
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>> because of my charges, i'm housed in level 6. they said i beat a guy to death with three other people in the county jail. he died of torn kidneys, broken
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ribs, broken skull. he was brain dead. they charged four of us. they charged me with the death penalty. take me to court for two and a half years to fight them. i get the death penalty thrown out and then they hang me for first-degree murder. they offered me a plea bargain and i said okay. >> like many suspected gang members, the only way out of level 6 is out of state transfer. the problem is, his request has been denied before. >> what is it that you need from me today? what do you need to know. >> transfer. >> transfer where? >> out of state. >> i was told your out of state was denied. however -- however, let me finish. what i can do -- you have it and i don't have it?
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>> when i got here, you locked me down. >> okay. >> i stayed under investigation for three and a half years. on may 18th of last year i beat the death penalty. when i beat it, they said we can't let you out until your conclusion of the homicide trial. >> right. >> i got aggravated battery. when i came back, they said the only way i can go out of state is by level 6 inmate. i was no longer under investigation. he had to write something up. what he does, change me from investigation to security for the murder of an inmate. that's not what i'm here for. >> okay. you're right. we'll do a special hearing. i don't care about that guy. what i'm going to do is another special hearing. i'll do another form. instead of putting initial, i'll put special and make the
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correction that you weren't convicts and that you pled down to aggravated battery. however, you will still meet the criteria for level 6. >> how long do i have to stay in lockdown for aggravated battery? four years. i seen guys come here for stabbing and stay for a year. this had nothing to do with that. i understand that. what i'm trying to tell you is this, the constitution officer will take relevant information from the court or district attorney. there's no mention in there. nothing about it. all he says is consider him to go out of state. he writes back and say he's a threat for the murder of an inmate. >> that's not why you are in level 6. >> that's why my out of state was denied. it says right there. out of state transfer denied. inmate is a threat to security. >> okay. so, we don't need to argue about that. what i'm going to do is a
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special review for you, just like i said and change the wording. listen to me. listen to me. this is a committee. this is a committee. >> give me my sheet so i can appeal it. >> i haven't done it. i just finished telling you i have to type it up. correct? >> that's not the way -- >> yes, it is. >> can i show you how it needs to be done. >> no. daniel -- listen to me, daniel. once i get all the stuff done, i will send up a hearing notice for you to sign. within 48 hours of that hearing notice, that's how it's done. >> can i show you something else? >> no, i don't need to hear anything else. listen to me. >> you're supposed to bring me here. >> you're correct. >> no. it's irrelevant. now, i'm doing it all over again. you can complain about the way i
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do it, later. now, i'm explaining how we'll do it. i'll bring you back -- i don't care. >> what's your policy. >> i don't care. are you going to listen? >> it says -- >> yes, you're right. this isn't a committee. this is a meeting. no, it's not. i'm going to set you up for a committee. >> i don't want a committee -- >> daniel, you need to be quiet and listen to me so you can hear what i'm saying. listen. listen. don't say another word. you are going to go to committee. before you go to committee, i have to write up the stuff, the hearing notice. you get a hearing notice. within 48 hours of the hearing notice, you'll come to committee. when that committee happens, everybody will be here. this isn't a committee. this is a meeting trying to figure out what you are telling me at the door. >> what does that have to do with that? >> i don't care about -- i don't care about -- >> he's too argumentative. he's not listening to me. have a good day. bye-bye.
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have a good day. go ahead and take him. have a good day. have a good day. bye-bye. [ bleep ] [ bleep ] >> so, it's going to be another long process. next week, i'll have it all squared away. they can deny his out of state, if they want. based on proper information versus wrongly worded information. >> daniel may feel like he's never leaving level 6. then we talk to another inmate whose only way out may be through death. >> i'm not afraid to die or afraid to be dead. i've made my peace with god. i've made my peace with this world. >> the gang violence is far from over. >> it could take someone's life in an instant.
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make today the day you talk to your rheumatologist. and ask how you can defend against and help stop further joint damage with humira. many level 6 inmates won't get out of the supermax facility until they are released on parole. for another group, there's only one way out. >> this is unit 4. it's where lethal injection is
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administered to inmates sentenced to death. since 1912 when the state of new mexico became a state, we have executed 26 people. the last one and the only one we did in this area was teri clark on november 6th, 2001. there are two inmates sentenced to death in the state of new mexico. one of those inmates is housed here at level 6. >> this is my wonderful piece of heaven. 7 foot by 12 foot. >> he was sentenced to death in 2005. he's currently in the appeal process. >> we first met robert while shooting the original lock-up new mexico episode in 2005. >> let me ask you a question. is it a greater sin to steal a cracker or to kill someone? >> to kill someone. >> god doesn't see it that way. you break one sin, you break all sins. what does it matter which sin you perpetrate. i'm not afraid to die. i'm not afraid to be dead.
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you know? i've made my peace with god. i've made by peace with this world. i'm trying to do the best i can to live in this world with what time i have left whether it be next year or 100 years, who knows, you know? >> these two rooms are for witnesses for the execution. we keep them separate because, obviously, it's victims versus family members of the inmate. we wouldn't want them to be in the same area. also, present is the attorney general, the highest ranking legal official of the state of mexico. >> my death may be scheduled, but it's not guaranteed. you know. i believe only god knows the day i'm going to die. if the state does put me to death, i go to my maker with a clear conscience. >> in this room, is the area where the drugs are
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administered. in this room, there's a red phone. if there's a stay of execution or change of order, it would be communicated through the red phone. once the execution is completed, the body of the inmate is brought through this door here out this door into the sally port where there would be an ambulance waiting to remove the body. >> i've been in prison since 2000. i was arrested in june for murder. i was convicted of one homicide in 2002, another one in 2003. a double homicide in 2005. i have ongoing appeals and litigation concerning those. >> can you say under what circumstances this person was murdered? >> this man beat this woman to death with a sledgehammer because he wanted to have sex with her and she didn't want to. and i didn't stop it.
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the same man that killed the woman i'm convicted of murdering was involved in the death of the other gentleman. he was either strangled or beaten to death, they are not sure which. it was bad enough they couldn't make a determination as to which killed him, the strangling or the beating. as far as the other two murders, both of these men were friends of mine, good friends. one man, i knew, he wasn't a man. he was a 19-year-old boy. i knew him since he was 5 years old. they were beaten and throats cut. they died violently, very violently. i think that going to certain death, you really become aware of how you live, what days you have left. do you want to party your butt off or live the best you can for god? some days, i do that well, living for god. other days, i make mistakes, i'm only human.
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like i said, i'm trying to overcome that person i once was. case in point, we have a rule here about facial hair. i got in an argument with a lieutenant over shaving. i was upset about it. i didn't cuss and i didn't threaten him. that's something new. i might have gotten in an argument about what he cared about, but i didn't call him names or cuss him out or threaten to beat him down or go after him. >> have you contemplated the thought of living your life here? >> yeah. >> yeah? sfrz >> i live the best i can no matter where i'm at. sink, toilet, you maximize whatever space you have. i have been a firm believer, if you're dependent upon who you are with and what's around you, to be peaceful and happy, you
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are not going to be peaceful and happy. you have to make wherever you're at organized and peaceful and happy. it comes from within. >> coming up, efforts to prevent another gang fight pay off. >> very good day. awesome day. we saved somebody's life. >> i think it was a year after i got incarcerated in prison that i joined. but nothing's helped me beat my back pain. then i tried this. it's salonpas. this is the relief i've been looking for. salonpas has 2 powerful pain fighting ingredients that work for up to 12 hours. and my pharmacist told me it's the only otc pain patch approved for sale using the same rigorous clinical testing that's required for prescription pain medications. proven. powerful. safe. salonpas.
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here's what's happening this hour for you. the jurors will be in court in two hours to hear the rebuttal to the closing argument. then the deliberations begin. casey is accused of killing her 2-year-old daughter, caylee. a ruptured exxon mobile pipeline that sent oil into a
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river. now, back to msnbc. due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised. ♪ there ain't nothing you can do to me that i haven't already done to me ♪ ♪ pass forgiveness for god to be my witness ♪ ♪ try to listen ♪ i walk a thin line ♪ what's live ♪ the only light i see is crack pipes ♪ ♪ that's my only option ♪ i never thought twice [ bleep ] >> they have openly declared war
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against each other based on the two series of events that have happened at the level 6. attempted assaults and then retaliated last weekend and carried out an assault on an inmate. so, what we're doing is trying to find weapons or gather intelligence to stop a future assault. >> a couple sources i talked to basically came out and told me there's going to be retaliation. this is mainly for you guys that work at the level 6. and the guys i talked to are not going to be able to do anything about it. they are going to retaliate the snm. it's going to happen. you need to be on your toes and be ready for it. that's what i was told today by a couple sources i talked to. the phrase they used was tick for a tack. something like that. be ready and be careful. >> a new day today.
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we finished on the 3-a side. today we start on the 3-b side. we are doing the same thing we did yesterday. we strip searched them and conducted interviews and cell searches and it's taking its toll, heavily. 10 to 12 hour days. it's getting kind of tough. we know with the violence that has occurred and the violence that could be forthcoming, we need to keep pushing forward ensuring we can do whatever we can to curtail another assault and find other weapons or information that we can find. >> as we were shaking down a cell up there, myself and the other officer noticed that there was a tear inside the mattress. that prompted us to detect metal
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and when we did that it didn't set it off. we noticed there was a homemade soap on the mattress. we let the supervisor know. we slit these open and there they were. plastic, you cannot detect with a metal detector. with the tools that we have, it's unable to detect that. it's a very good find. my speculation, it's made from the food trays. they break the lids off. very hard plastic. it could take somebody's life. very good day, awesome day. we saved somebody's life. >> the shake downs have proven successful, but the officers have no doubts about the plans of the inmates. >> what does this mean about the war? >> it's still on. right now they're quiet because they're locked down. they haven't had the opportunity
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to battle with each other. but i'm sure it's going to come. it's just a matter of have we made the necessary security changes or precautions to try to stop that from happening. >> we know for a fact, these groups are assessing our staff members in terms of their abilities to do their job. >> they are regrouping and reorganizing and restrategizing the way they are going to carry out retaliation or continue assaulting each other. >> once we are done shaking down here a separate team of security supervisors will come through and do a security assessment to see what improvements need to be made at this facility. >> as far as your jobs go? >> our jobs never end. >> we are pretty tired, but we know that we're going to be making some crucial decisions and try to put an end to this violence. put an end to the war.
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so, when will it end for us? it doesn't. >> when there's no more inmates in prison. when we retire. >> the captain and his team know full well they'll never completely remove gangs. every day new inmates arrive and many of them waste little time before choosing sides. >> about a year after i got incarcerated in prison, i joined the snm. >> shortly after joining the prison gang, he was ordered by snm to kill a fellow gang member. >> i was 18. it was the first time i killed anybody. it wasn't easy to kill him in the sense that you see it on the movies and how guys cavalierly kill people. it wasn't like that for me. i remember planning it out. in the '80s, he was a member of
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another gang. you can't do that. you can't be in two clicks. you just can't. word was put out to kill the guy. i happened to be in jail when the word was put out. there was consistency, so we had the same officer coming in four or five days a week. then he'd have two days off. he would then come back on. i studied him and his mannerisms and behavior. when i got to the point i felt comfortable, i made my move. after they opened all the cell doors for evening chow, while everybody was eating, i sat down next to him on his bed and talked to him. he got up. turned on his light, which sat across the desk on the wall to roll a cigarette. bible paper. when he turned his back to me, i stood on the bed and put the rope around his neck. he fought me and threw me around the room. surprisingly strong.
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i guess when you're fighting for your life, you have strength. ultimately, he couldn't get the rope off his neck. he sum cup. once he died, i put him back to bed like he was asleep. turned off his light. >> you got away with it? >> i got away with it. i went and picked a fight with some black guys in another pod just to do that because i knew if i created friction in the pod and all kinds of different things were happening at once, law enforcement would never know what happened. about nine years later the cold case homicide officer came and he talked to me in this visiting room right here and he asked me, and i told him. he offered me a deal. if i admitted to it, they would run the life sentence concurrent with the life sentence that i'm in prison for right now. but, i'm in here because i was a member of the snm and now i
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declare i'm on my own, the state is not going to let me out to the population because they are not sure if i'm going to get hurt or they're not sure if i'm manipulating to them or lying to them. as a result, i'm stuck. good or bad. convinced he'll never reach general population in new mexico, fredrico files for an out of state transfer. >> i've done it four or five times in the last year. >> they continue their crackdown on prison gangs. >> has anyone tried to recruit you into a gang? >> no. [ male announcer ] built like a volkswagen. the 2011 tiguan. [ grunts ]
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the penitentiary of new mexico holds the worst offenders in the state.
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some who are validated gang members that are in a constant state of war with each other and staff. today, they are doing a sweep in the level 5 facility allowing our crew along for the ride. >> ladies and gentlemen we are here to conduct a shake down. we have information on snm gang members. we're going to head to the unit and look for gang information and graffiti. >> sometimes when you shake down a cell, first thing you want to do is just observe everything. you look. the most common places you'll find is the easiest place you'll think of. look, gang paraphernalia here. >> what is it? >> three crosses. it's from new mexico. they use the three crosses to display gang symbols. >> it's essential in maintaining
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the safety of the facility. >> i found that hanging here. once it's validated, you'll never be able to go to a level-b facility. a lot of bearing on the inmates future once he gets validated. >> you can take that and i'll write him up for possession of gang paraphernalia. >> he'll be documented as a potential street gang member and we'll start a file on him if one hasn't already been created and that way, wherever he goes, whether it's to another if silty or out on the streets, he'll be identified as a suspected gang member. >> the letters here in the cell, she found what looks like a diagram or pattern of handcuff key. the crude making, the beginning of it.
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the manufacturing stages. what he's doing is he has all these bars of soap. what he'll start doing is cut out a pattern to match it to this, out of soap. once he gets a good pattern down, he'll find a piece of metal to transfer it to a piece of metal. he was on the right track. >> so, what does it mean for the inmate? >> it's a good find for us. obviously, we know his intentions are now. for this inmate, nothing will happen. we'll take this from him. it's not in actual fabrication stages. if it was carved out of something, we would charge him. >> we have an address book that was found in this inmate's cell. on the inside he has gang graffiti lists here. inside contacts of gang members in the facilities. this is a list of monikers, they go by. if good thing is they have their numbers here.
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we go through and see if we have those listed. do we know who peanut is and bill, things like that. if we don't, we have them identified as who this person is. we can use it later on. >> this inmate, what happens to him? >> what happens to him? it's not a crime to have this information. what we'll do is take it, we let him now we confiscated it. puts him on notice that we are on to you. we're looking at you and staying on top of your correspondence. it gives him an opportunity to quell his activities. he knows the heat is on. he'll contact the other guys and say they are looking at me. know what i mean. while he's doing that, we will see who he's corresponding with and who he's shooting the warning off to and we can network his group. >> let's go. we're going to have a chitchat.
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>> they bring him in for a interview about his possible gang affiliation as part of the validation process. >> we did shake downs in your unit today. i'm sure you know. that's why you were in rec for awhile. during the search we found this book here with gang writing symbolism on it. we want to ask you about it. >> what about it? >> what information is on it? what do you have written? >> what does it say? >> i'm asking you. >> come on, man. you're going to do what you're going to do. you know what i mean? it says what it says. it's what it is. some numbers, some letters, some initials. you know, if you think they are gang, then take the necessary -- >> let me explain to you -- explain to me what the meanings are to you. >> why? they are for me, not you. or anyone else. they are for me. >> in the back pages of your
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phone book, you have a lot of inmates' names and numbers. why? >> they are my homeys. >> you consider them associates? homeys being your friends? >> why not? i know them. >> all right. has anybody tried to recruit you to be in a gang? >> no. >> do you have any tattoos that identify you as being a gang member? >> yeah, i do. street gang. >> what street gang do you belong to? where? >> we're going to keep this for now. we're going to make copies of the names and inmates you have in there and put it in your file then give it back to you. >> do you have any questions? all right. >> he hasn't been validated as a prison gang member yet, but he's on his way. back in level 6, happy is headed to the parole board.
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>> i just came back from rec and i'm fixing to head to the parole board. i'm nervous now. you never know what's going to happen. you don't know if they are going to deny you or let me go. but, i know that somebody up above is looking out for me because if it wasn't meant to be, i wouldn't be here now. so -- worst case scenario, my parole could be denied. best case scenario, i'll be out by 5:00. coming up, will he still be happy after his parole hearing? fredrico files for an out of state transfer. the results are less than he hoped for. >> this is a sham. say somethin. so how about this weekend we learn some new tricks of the trade...
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happy's parole hearing was held behind closed doors but the result was positive. in the next few hours, he'll be released from the prison where he spent the last five years of his life. >> hey, take it easy. >> that's a sound you don't forget, ever. >> what? >> the sound of the doors. he just did something that never happens. he took off all my cuffs and chains. all my chains. >> how do you feel right now? >> this is weird because i don't have the handcuffs on and i'm still rubbing my wrists. i feel way different now.
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it's a process of freedom and i'm nervous because i'm not used to being like this. i don't feel normal because i'm used to having the handcuffs on me. >> here's your i.d. >> okay. >> monday morning. 8:00. you were supposed to report 24 hours from the parole. >> okay. now, i'm going to go see my mom. she's out front waiting for me. it's about being responsible now. a lot of people, what a lot of people do is they leave here not understanding the consequences. but, i'm fixing to do good. i feel really good right now. >> look at you, no handcuffs.
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no shackles. finally, after six years. >> i missed you, mom. sorry. >> for what? quit saying that. oh. oh. >> i just wanted to thank you for everything you have done because without you, i probably wouldn't have made it out here. because you gave me hope. and in there, if you ain't got hope, you ain't got nothing and you ain't got nothing to live for. you do what you got to do in prison to live. but, you gave me hope to live.
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i appreciate it, mom. >> here we are. back together. >> this committee that's going to be run, this is pretty much a myth that this committee will result in action. as a result, i'm stranded here at this facility even though i'm not getting conduct reports or any of those things. >> unlike happy, fredrico is never getting out of prison. as a validated gang member, the only way to leave level 6 is through an out of state transfer. >> fredrico, how are you? >> fine, yourself? >> pretty good. i reviewed your file and back in march, 2007, you went to committee for a release or out
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of state transfer. >> yes. >> i don't find anything in there whether they approved you or denied you. we're going to do another review. i didn't set you up, yet. sign here, waiving your 48 hours and sign here and initial here because you are here. i wanted to ask you, if you want to go out of state? >> yes. >> okay. another thing i was going to tell you, before i can submit it to central office, i need to get a medical clearance. sometimes that takes a long time for medical, i don't know why. >> my file has been released for medical five or six different times. i've done that. i signed that form five or six different times over the last year. >> really? it's not here. maybe it won't take so long and we can hurry the process up. >> great. >> this is what i wrote. custody transfer review. we're referring you for an out-of-state transfer.
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justification is inmate meets criteria with an indefinite sentence. by signing it doesn't mean you agree or disagree, you are informed of the action. we are referring you for an out-of-state transfer. just a recommendation, doesn't mean they have to approve it, however, i think they will. it will take anywhere from, i'm saying anywhere from three weeks to three months to get an answer. however, then we need to find a state that will accept you. that sometimes takes a long time. we send paperwork to california, if they accept you, fine, if they deny you, we have to find another state. it could take longer to do that part. i don't see a problem with it being approved immediately. >> good. >> you can have this part fredrico. have a good day. >> thank you. i was biting my tongue.
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this is a sham, this committee. this referral, she said there was another out of state referral. she didn't know if anything resulted from that. how would she not know? if the machinery of the corrections department is running smoothly, there would be a trail. obviously there wasn't which means nothing happened in the first place. that means this is a sham.
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there is no fourth of july holiday in the casey anthony trial. jurors are trying to find the fate of a mom accused of killing her daughter. a ruptured exxon mobile pipe in the river. dominique strauss-kahn celebrates as they drop the sexual case against him. i'm richard lui. we start with the casey anthony trial nearing a close. emotions running high as both sides presented their arguments in the case of a young woman accused of killing her 2-year-old daughter. >> what you find throughout this case is this persistent pattern.
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when casey wants to do what casey wants to do, casey finds a way. >> they gave you two weeks of testimony that served one purpose, to paint her as a slut, a party girl, a girl who lies and has absolutely nothing to do with how caylee died. >> she knew that night she would be in the arms of her boyfriend and caylee would be dead. >> if you hate her, if you think she's a lying no-good slut, you will start to look at this evidence in a different light. >> we are live outside the courthouse. as we listen to the exerts of what happened, there's closing arguments. >> there was a great deal of
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animosity between the defense and prosecution. court planned to resume at 8:30 a.m. this morning. the prosecution will take 90 minutes, an hour and a half in the rebuttal. if they plan to rebut, every inconsistency they pointed out yesterday, it will take longer than that. then, we would move on for judge perry to charge the jury and give instructions. >> we talked about the instructions. how long do you think it will take? >> it will take about 45 minutes to an hour. there's no knowing of that. yesterday, that was around the time that the judge discussed with both sides on what the instructions will be. 45 to an hour. it would allow, obviously, depending on how long the state takes on the rebuttal, closing for the case to go to the jury for deliberations at noon for lunch. >> how many charges are we
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expecting for the jury to deliberate here? >> it won't be easy. seven counts, of course first degree murder, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter of a child and four counts of lying to law enforcement. they have to go through hundreds of pieces of evidence. they will be read some of the testimony if they ask. it won't be a short or easy procedure is what we are hearing. >> thank you for the latest on that. >> let's bring in diana. we are down to it. we are going to get the prosecutions rebuttal statement today. how important is what we are about to hear in the next hour and a half, we believe? >> this is going to be important. you heard cheney mason talk about how to kill a mockingbird. the filibuster, that was the longest closer i have ever seen. the defense, given the box they
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put themselves in with the opening statement did a great job. they poked holes, reasonable doubt points that were made. i think the prosecution was surprised at how well jose baez did. they have to sell it this morning. >> let's play the sound you are alluding to. both the attorneys speaking. take a listen. >> these are the facts you have heard and these are the facts that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that casey anthony is guilty of murder in the first degree. >> reasonable doubt lives here. it's throughout the case. it's right here. it's with these individuals. it's with those individuals. it's everywhere. you can't trust this evidence. you can't. >> so, diana, the burden of proof. has it been met? >> i think the overarching thing the juror may be left with is,
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this is a mom who had care, custody, control of the child. she knows more than she's saying. she knows what happened. the story doesn't make sense. if they hold the state to the standard, there's definite holes when it comes to premeditation. medical examiner can't give cause of death. i don't know what they will do. it may be a compromised verdict. they want to give a solution and not want to hang up. we may get second degree manslaughter compromise. >> do you believe the defense attorney for casey anthony in the laundry list attack he made or counter attack that it worked? >> i think the opening statement was a huge mistake, given that he wasn't able to bring the evidence to the jury or able to argue the sex abuse in the closing. it was a huge, huge part of the opening statement. he boxed himself in at the front
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of the trial and problems throughout, i think he did as well as he could have given the situation he was in. >> i'm going to have you listen to a little bit of what the judge said. listen to this. >> you are charged with the responsibility of following the law. so, maybe i am misinformed when i think you will follow the law. but, i'm beginning to see that orders or anything else may not mean a hill of a bean to any of you. >> so, the judge alluding to the rules he outlined diana, that you are familiar with. under taking crazy antics, again, that was the prosecution attorney ashton smirking.
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>> yeah. i have been in front of judge perry quite a few times. he was genuinely angry there. he was this close to holding them both in jail, both in contempt. i thought they are going to join the poor kid from fridays who got six days for doing the flip-off job. this was much more obvious. ashton could not control his sarcasm and he was visibly, i think, laughing at the defense. the defense lawyer frankly called him out on it. had enough. he said something about that laughing man over there and the judge stopped court. i don't know what's going to happen to both of them. i bet they have to pay a fine, at least. >> 8:30, we are going to see more of this. diana, thank you so much. >> thank you. police in memphis say one of their officers died from
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injuries sustained in a shooting in a busy entertainment district. timothy warren was one of several responding to a domestic dispute. police responded to a disturbance call earlier in the day involving the gunman. authorities in montana continue to assess the damage caused when an oil pipeline ruptured, spilling tens of thousands of oil friday. the spill soiled several miles of river bank near the town of laurel. george lewis is in billings with more on that. >> reporter: richard, take a look at this. this is the plant life along the river banks of the yellowstone river. i picked it and got my hand full of crude oil. there's a line of crude stretching the dark line beside me all over the place. exxon says a thousand barrels of
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oil spilled. it's 42,000 gallons. they believe it's confined to a ten-mile area upstream from billings, montana. but, the governor of montana says he doesn't quite believe it. he says what's going to have to be done is people are going to have to go out with boats and examine every inch of the river bank, up and down the river to see how far the spill area is going. the question is, how much damage will there be to water foul and to fish and to the water supply for the people of montana. a lot of towns and cities along the river depend on the water for their drinking supplies. farmers say they are worried about what's happening to their acreage as the river floods, they believe it will carry the crude over their crop lands and they are worried about the long term effects on their farmland.
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now, the epa, the environmental protection agency has workers out here. as it gets light, they will be out examining the area. richard. >> george lewis, thanks for the latest on that. now something that will unfold in amherst today. jon huntsman and mitt romney will be in the same fourth of july parade. romney will go first because he applied first. neither will lead the parade. it's reserved for kids on bikes. i did not mean to imply you were coming in on bicycles, by the way. i just meant that activity itself. before we got into the weekend, the numbers were required to be reported on the amount of money raised. joe, when you look, start with you, at the numbers here, mitt romney is saying he got $20
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million. much expected. ron paul, tim pawlenty, jon huntsman in the $4 million range and cain at 2$2.5 million. >> huntsman just got in the race. there's a lot of excitement. mitt romney is way ahead. you have to raise -- whoever the nominee is, they have to raise a lot of money. president obama is planning to raise $1 billion. the republicans have to work hard to be competitive. >> richard, when you look at the numbers, they are lowing than last year at this time, understandably, because of many reasons including the economy. should we associate the buzz with any of these candidates with the amount of money they have raised? >> it's a good indicator. what i draw from that is what a
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shockingly weak field, in two respects. one, look at the money. a month ago, romney was making a splash, oh, i raised $10 million in one day. the other 90 days of the quarter, he raised between 15 and 20 total for the quarter. it's a grand total of five million. barack obama raised more in the quarter than the whole republican field put together. incidentally, two weeks ago, there was talk romney would have $40 million. the 15 million to $20 million tells me there's a yearning. 23% of the republican voters say they are satisfied with the field. 71% want to see somebody new. 67% couldn't name a single candidate they would be happy to support. in '07, 69% of republicans said they were happy with the field. i think the polling numbers and the money numbers show a
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disaffection with the people in already. >> richard is ready with numbers today. >> i think the republican candidates are fine. they have to duke it out to see who is going to be the leader among them. you have folks with the capacity to be very, very strong when it comes to a sitting president. you have a popular sitting president, who at the same time has unemployment rate of 9%. no president has been reelected with an unemployment rate over 7%. there's challenges he faces. he's a very, very good campai campaigner and excellent on the stump. he doesn't make many mistakes. republicans have their work cut out for them. we have great candidates. if you look at romney, huntsman, bachmann. tim pawlenty, we have a great field. we have to get stronger. we have to raise the money is
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all. >> what we didn't see on the list is rick perry. wh when we look at the former governor, excuse me, when you talk about him, it looks like one of newt gingrich's former staffers joined his time. >> he has to make up his time quickly for getting the mechanics of the campaign. he's got a few gingrich people and the money he's got to pull together. getting delegates slated. there's a lot of enthusiasm about rick perry. his calling card was he mused about succession. when you run to the united states, it's not a good thing to run on. >> it makes him an original. that's what it is. >> if you like high income, not easy access to medical care or
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environmental protection. it's a great leading indicator of where president perry might take the country. he talked about taking on progressives on social issues. when you need to go to suburban voters in philly and outside cleveland and detroit, that is who republicans have been losing lately. i don't think governor perry is likely to pull them in. >> by the way, governor perry and any of his supporters, i did not imply he's no longer governor. he's still governor of texas. >> thank you. former imf chief, dominique strauss-kahn is a free man. does he still have a future in french politics? [ grunts ]
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venezuelan government released new video of hugo chavez days after announcing surgery in havana. meanwhile, former international leader dominique strauss-kahn enjoys his first weekend from from an ankle bracelet since accused of sexual assault. prosecutors are not saying what the next move will be. the accuser has a history of lying. i may be a matter of time before charges are dropped. as a legal battle unfolds in the united states, questions are swarming about whether or not he will jump back into french politics. >> he has a play a role, a great role in the future. it's important for france, the left and the future.
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>> joining me live from paris is christopher dicky. at this point, prosecutors could continue with the charges, reduce them, a plea deal or dismissal. as that is going on, what is the reaction to france and the latest developments in the case as we have been watching them? >> it's crazy here. people don't have any idea how the justice system works. in the minds of the french people, he's innocent. american conspiracy, a conspiracy by the sitting president of the republic in france. it's crazy speculation. you hear that the maid raped him. it's a nutsy kind of situation. at the end of the day, the
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ground work is being laid for him to come back and play some sort of political role. he will come back, if not as a hero, at least with the possibility of continuing. >> i was reading headlines. as the view from the french about the u.s. system, the u.s. justice system. some of them seem extreme. what are you seeing there? >> i think people don't understand it. it works differently than in france. in the united states, you have the difference between probable cause, the basis on which an arrest is made, then beyond a reasonable doubt, which is the basis for conviction. it's hard to explain to the french. here, you have investigators compile big cases. the french get the same. if it's a jury trial, they have to decide if they have the intimate conviction, a strong belief. >> there's a poll that shows 60% of left leading french voters
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want strauss-kahn back in. how likely is it he will return to french politics? >> the polls are confusing. some are asking, can he come back? there you have 49% saying yes. if the question is should he come back, the numbers are lower. he's going to have a real problem with french women. it's one thing to have his sex life and personal life be something a lot of people suspected or kind of knew. it's another thing to have it all over the tabloids and all the international press for the last six weeks. i think he's going to have a hard time living down that with women. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. while we celebrate this fourth of july holiday, we take time to honor the brave men and women serving overseas.
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welcome back to msnbc. if you are just joining us, happy fourth of july. i'm richard lui. prosecutors in florida are getting the last word this morning before jurors begin deliberating. they must decide if the mom murdered her 2-year-old. the parents of amanda knox are going on trial for liable. they have been ordered to stand trial for alleging italian police abused their daughter. >> firefighters say a tree that fell on fire lines sparked a fire. the residents are back home after evacuation orders were lifted. rain is helping to give firefighters a boost there. will the weather hold up for
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your fourth of july barbecue or fireworks plans? we'll get the forecast straight ahead. >> so, ah, your seat good? got the mirrors all adjusted? you can see everything ok? just stay off the freeways, all right? i don't want you going out on those yet. and leave your phone in your purse, i don't want you texting. >> daddy... ok! ok, here you go. be careful. >> thanks dad. >> and call me--but not while you're driving.
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we knew this day was coming. that's why we bought a subaru.
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book it. major wow factor! where you book matters. expedia. wild weather around the country ruining fourth of july celebrations. strong thunderstorms in washington, d.c., forcing them to evacuate the capital mall. in st. louis the fireworks were canceled. mike seidel joins us with a look with your july 4th forecast many folks bringing out the umbrellas. i hope it's not the case today. what do you have? >> there will be more storms today. a lot of unhappy campers because they canceled the maroon 5
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concert. fireworks display tonight in washington. we don't expect anything like last night. there's a slim chance of a thunderstorm. most of them should be out of the way by the time sundown rolls around. very heavy rainfall in st. louis from evansville to cincinnati. this will be the focus of storms this afternoon. we think the rain in st. louis will be over by mid afternoon and the weather will turn around for the better for those of you at the arch. here is your national forecast. the storm is along the front. the main threat hail and high winds. with the southeast, heat and humidity. the chance of rain is only 30% in most of these areas. new york city is fine. the western part of the country is generally dry. the monsoon kicked in. it's bringing moisture from the gulf of california and the gulf
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of mexico. it was is 118 in phoenix on saturday, 112 yesterday. today, one degree below average. a lot of fireworks displays have been canceled because of the draught. back east, 88. we'll get the fireworks in along the hudson and the harbor. back to you. >> for all the folks who have to battle the soggy hamburger buns, at least they can enjoy another way by watching fireworks on tv. thank you so much. david petraeus is making the rounds in afghanistan. a sebt sentiment echoed in the afghan capital. they insist the president's plan to bring troops home by fall is too much and too soon. >> what i'm mostly worried about
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is the accelerated withdrawal of forces created a perception we are leaving. withdrawal is what the enemy hoped to hear. >> we are live in kabul. while there's ongoing, the troops are working hard as they celebrate the fourth of july, too. >> reporter: absolutely, richard. this is a holiday back home. we have to remember we have u.s. servicemen and women in afghanistan and iraq and all over the world that don't have the luxury of taking a day off. we are here at the kabul compound in afghanistan with service members awaiting the arrival of general david petraeus. he's basically taking a farewell tour going through various phases. this is his eighth fourth of july in 11 years in combat zone. he is about to leave this month
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to head to his new post in washington, d.c. as cia director. richard. >> there are reports that a nato soldier is missing in afghanistan. what do you know about that? >> reporter: again, a reality check of where we are right now. this is afghanistan. it may be a holiday, but we are in a war zone. we did get word this morning that a nato service member was missing in afghanistan. it was confirmed by afghan and british officials he was a british soldier. our producer got a text message from the taliban spokesperson who claims they did kidnap a nato service member. they claimed it was an american. they said they also killed him. >> in kabul, thank you. president obama is taking a break from the debt debate to celebrate the fourth of july with military families later this evening. we are live at the white house watching that for us. what is on the agenda for us?
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>> hi, richard. you are right. today is all about celebrating the fourth of july. president obama and his family were at camp david over the weekend. they got back last evening. this evening, they are hosting a celebration for military members and families. it will be filled with a barbecue fourth of july celebration and also wouldn't be complete without fireworks. everyone is looking forward to that event. a break from the talk about raising the debt ceiling. it will be focused on the fourth of july. >> talking about the debt, we are quickly approaching a second debt deadline that we have been hearing so much about recently. there's word the president could by pass congress if the deal is not worked out. how will that work? >> here is the situation, richard. that idea is basically being talked about right now. nothing has been etched in stone. some people are wondering if the president will by pass congress
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and tell the treasury to raise the debt ceiling. he could do it through the 14th amendment. the debt of the u.s. shall not be questioned. this is just an idea that's percolating. there's no indicating the president is moving forward with this. when asked about this possibility over the weekend, here is what republican senator john cornyn had to say. take a listen. >> that's crazy talk. it's not acceptable for congress not to do their job. to say the president has the authority to basically do this by himself. >> reporter: now, at issue, $1 trillion, republicans and democrats about $1 trillion away from reaching an agreement. democrats proposed rolling back tax credits for big oil companies, private jet companies. republicans won't support anything that looked like a --
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rhetoric saying that congress hadn't done enough to get a deal done. in the wake of that, senators canceled their scheduled vacation for this week so they will be back here tomorrow to work out a deal on the debt limit. >> thank you. what makes the united states great? how about the old spice guy and g-6 airlines? why they make the list of 100 great things about the u.s. [ grunts ]
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[ male announcer ] built like a volkswagen. the 2011 tiguan. [ grunts ] we know right from wrong. and we know the ads blaming president obama for the economy are politics at its worst. the republicans have opposed economic reforms at every turn. and now they have a plan that would essentially end medicare for future retirees... slash education... while giving huge tax breaks to big oil and the wealthy. we can't rebuild america if they tear down the middle class.
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priorities usa action is responsible for the content of this advertising.
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got some breaking news right now. six people are missing after a ship capsized. the boat was carrying 44 people including 20 u.s. citizens from the san francisco bay area and washington state. 37 people rescued including all the americans. one person has died.
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we'll continue following that for you. plenty of ways to celebrate the fourth today. macy's will launch their giant fireworks spectacular. beyonce and brad paisley will handle the preperformance. defend a hot dog eating contest. this year, a separate women's competition. go joey. take it home. >> no, i'm not disputing the fine, i'm refusing to pay it. >> miss, i mean ma'am, read the fine print, if you don't pay, i can serve you three weeks of community service. >> how about three months. this is a sham your dishoner. you can't handle the truth. >> all right.
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that is, of course, the nbc show "30 rock" and a very funny tina fey. she's one of the 100 greatest things about america. lee gallagher is the author. we have tina fey. she's hilarious. >> she's great. she's a multitalent. a writer, comedian, actress. she came to the stage with her sarah palin impiers anything. we think she's one of the things about this country. we did 100 things last year and plan to do 100 next year. they are some of the best things of our country. >> walmart employees, joplin, missouri made your list. >> it is. we were putting this together at the time joplin happened. there were amazing stories about the managers and employees at
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the walmart store. a store manager gathered everybody and said go by this wall. it's the one wall that stayed. the stories were so moving, they went above and beyond. >> great stories of what people are doing. >> amazing. >> then there's this guy. >> if you are a man who use old spice, you could wear this, or this or this, all over this. >> what makes him so engaging to america? the united states? >> you can't not crack up when you are watching him. it's hilarious. it's the right irony and everything. old spice is a brand that's been around since the 1930s. this company created this campaign that propelled it to the topic of conversation.
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it was over the twitter atmosphere. it brought this campaign, this brand back to life. >> women love this guy. >> they do. he's a joke. it's a punch line. >> pappy van wink l. did i get it right? >> yeah. this is a family-run company in kentucky. it's a bourbon brand we think is iconic. it's made in this country. we couldn't help but put a lot of liquids on the list. >> budweiser was there, too. it's difficult to get this bourbon. my producer tried to get one and they laughed at him. >> it's hard to find. there may be some in our offices. i might be able to hook you up. >> it's good to know the people at "fortune" magazine.
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>> the g-650. >> we sort of, the gulf grand. >> it's fast. >> it's fast. it seats eight comfortably. this is not something that everyone is going to have. something about the branding, the labeling of a g-5, a g-4 and now the g-650. this is the latest. it's made it into the, you know, popular music. fly like a g-6. >> the makings of a great party, get in a g-6, bring the pappy and old spice. >> there's the bill of rights, opportunity. you know -- >> it's a good list. i'm not trying to make fun of it. lee, thank you so much. have a good fourth. appreciate it. in a few hours we'll have the duke and duchess of cambridge. what will and kate are up to
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today, straight ahead. ♪ you are my sunshine ♪ my only sunshine ♪ you makes me happy ♪ when skies are grey ♪ you'll never know, dear ♪ how much i love you ♪ please don't take my sunshine away ♪ [ male announcer ] as long as there are babies, they'll be chevy's to bring them home. ♪
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the duke and duchess of cambridge have fallen in love with canada. even if the feeling is not mutual. protests marred them. the protests were an example of the country's -- a fairly complex guy. neil, how are you today? >> not bad, thank you, richard. slightly complex. >> very complex. >> a very busy schedule. they visited a terminally ill cancer patient. >> this, too, encompassed every facet. i think from our point of view here in the uk, an amazing success when you consider that kate, this is her first big tour, if you like, taking to it as a natural. a lot of people here, every day in the press, compare her to
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princess diana, taking pictures from years ago. the events are similar. a couple goes to visit someone who is terminally ill and they refer to the time diana was in a hospital in a full gown. you can't really win. >> this is day five of their trip, of their royal tour in canada. what is going to be happening in the coming days for them. the big story, richard, here, is the fact she claimed to a young girl she's a mommy in waiting. there's speculation next april could be the time. they just got married and everyone is edging them along to produce a child. i think the stars who they meet in hollywood, kate is slightly
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dressed down using high stream names, that sort of stuff. it's a positive feeling. canada knew they were going to pop up somewhere. >> they let it fall off them like water off a duck and they dept on moving forward. when you look at how they have done abroad, what's been the perception in how they have handled themselves so far in canada and now in the coming days to the united states? >> the united states is going to be the telling point, of course. princess diana was such a phenomenal icon for america. i know she loved them as much as you loved her. for kate, that's the most difficult period of this tour. over here, in the media, they are saying they have a new princess diana, a big thing to livekate, like
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prince charles is overshadowing prince william or the duke of cambridge. when you have somebody that sterling on your side, all the cameras are only going to point to her looking great. >> i want to point to this picture. this is kate while she was wearing that red fascinator on canada day. what has been the perception and statements about how she's dressed herself? there's been so much talk here about her fashion sense. >> you have to laugh, a woman dresses herself, sharp news. lots of women across america dress themselves every morning. this is where she plays it very well. although she looks glamorous, she's sending out a message saying i may be a royal, i'm one of you. i think the signals are that she's doing very good. i think all the ladies on the social set are saying we too can look like her. she's not wearing dresses that
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are out of their price range and out of their look. i think she looked great in every single outfit. the nod to canada that particular day, a clever move. everybody looks at her says she looks sensational. >> very appropriate for all the occasions she's been at. thanks for your time. you have a good one. >> pleasure. to the other royal couple everyone is watching. monaco has a new princess, after 11 years of dating, prince albert tied the knot to charlene witt did t wittstock. >> reporter: even before it started, this was glamour. where else would you gather crowned heads of europe, fashion kings, supermodels and james bond. filling the palace courtyard. a royal wedding in monaco style,
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all pastels and lace. prince albert marrying for the first time at 53. then came the bride. charlene wittstock did not run away, but dazzled in armani. the gown that took 2500 hours to make, embellished with 4,000 crystals. she was a vision, reminding so many of albert's mother, princess grace. 55 years ago marrying prince renier and capturing everybody's hearts. on her day, there was concern, watching their faces closely. is this the look of happiness? of true love? when will they smile or look at each other or touch? one blink and one might miss their kisses. it has been a tough few weeks in
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a place that looks like a fairy tale. police taking charlene's passport so she couldn't leave. the palace has denied it, though a friend concedes there was an argument and charlene needed a break. she returned and after the service cried. >> you know, rumors, it's not information and they showed their love was much stronger. >> reporter: lasting love has not come easy. prince princess grace's children have not had it easy. monaco wants this marriage to survive. >> everything was spoken and clear. >> reporter: the prince and princess making their royal fairy tale come true begins now.
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>> that was michelle kosinski reporting for us there. the casey anthony trial is about to resume in about half an hour with the prosecution rebuttal. then the jury gets the case. live coverage next hour on msnbc. ...was it something big? ...or something small? ...something old? ...or something new? ...or maybe, just maybe... it's something you haven't seen yet.
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>> right now, the trial that has transfixed the united states. it moves to a close. we are live in orlando as the casey anthony moves to a verdict in the next 30 minutes. deal or no deal on the debt crisis. the real fireworks erupt in the halls of capitol hill. the outgoing commander in afghanistan salutes the troops this 4th of july. i'm richard lui, thanks for joining us. first off, less than 30 minutes, court resumes in the casey anthony trial. jurors are expected to begin deliberating the fate of casey
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anthony. the judge is expected to charge the jury. both sides offered closing arguments on sunday. nbc lilley aluciano is outside the courthouse. >> richard, i have to say it is a holiday, so the streets are rather quiet, but around the courthouse, the media is all over this case. we do feel the air of anticipation for what's going to happen today. yesterday we saw a very short closing argument for the prosecution, for the state. but then when the defense came around, they had a lengthy set of arguments challenging a great deal of indiscretions, you might say, of the state's case. now, we are only wondering now what is the state going to come back with? are they going to rebut everything that jose baez pointed at yesterday, all of the
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inconsistencies, all of what he said fantasy evidence that he said the state had brought along. that's a big question today. we'll only hear that in about a half hour when the trial resumes. i wanted to share with you something i noticed yesterday. at the end of the day, judge perry gave a set of homework for both parties to study. i did the homework myself and looked at two cases that he recommended both sides to study. one, scott versus state. the other is -- i have the name somewhere around here. these are two cases where two people in florida were convicted of first degree murder. both sentenced to death and both death sentences were overturned on appeal. is judge perry providing us a window into the future or throwing a bone to the defense saying look at this. these were first degree murders overturned. they're going to spend their life in jail but not going through the death penalty. because the cases were called
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disproportionate punishment, the death sentence, per se. maybe it's judge perry insinuating that the death sentence for casey is disproportionate. >> very interesting, the timing so late. what do they have to do with this homework? do they have to make comment on it today? >> he has done it several times throughout the trial. he says go check out the case law on this. i don't know if this is something provided to the jury. i did not go through law school. i don't know exactly what the instructions are. we know the jury instructions deal with how they are to take the case and penalty phase comes much later if she is convicted. it's interesting to see that judge perry is intercepting at this point, saying there are two florida cases just last week. the death sentences were overturned. if those cases -- if that was considered disproportionate punishment, what can we expect for casey? one of those was a man who was convicted of killing his step daughter so he could continue a
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sexual relationship with her daughter who was 14. this is a very aggravated first degree murder case, and that death sentence was overturned. questions are being asked left and right on whether or not casey will undergo the death penalty. >> lilley, you may not have a law degree, but after this case, it may be as good as getting one. >> maybe half a semester. >> thank you so much. joining us right now is a former prosecutor and a defense attorney and former prosecutor as well. let's start with you massa. what is he saying with this appeal? was it disproportionate punishment? >> i think, yeah, the first issue is prosecution. it's not going to be disproportionate if they get a murder one conviction. >> i don't understand. what does it mean to say?
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>> i think it's that, you know, it's going to be a concern if you don't have a murder one conviction. what the prosecution is going to need to do is emphasize that they don't have to prove a cause of death. they have to go through and systematically attack all of the evidence, rebut all of the attacks against their evidence. they're going to stress the 31 days, they're going to stress her lies and the reason behind her lies, her desire for freedom. i think that's going to resin a ate for the jury. just because you have a picture of caylee in front of a sliding glass door. >> that's going to be the difficulty. we'll see if it goes on for four hours or not. what do you think, karen? when you take a look at who is in the jury, seven women and five men, is that right? >> right. >> when you look at the constitution of who is in that jury, what are they going to be thinking and doing?
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>> it's really interesting because when you do a lot of trials, we have all kinds of statistics on the jury makeup. i would like to tell you that that in fact works, but i've had trials sometimes where i thought for sure i knew that the makeup of the jury was going to result in my favorable outcome. does not always happen. women are more likely to find guilt. men are more likely to sentence harsher. there's all kinds of things you can look up. >> what's going to happen? what do you think? >> i can tell you, listen, you can based on the statistics of florida. in florida, a parent who kills a child is very highly unlikely to get a first degree. she's not going to walk away scott free. that's not going to happen. probably what's going to happen is she's going to get a manslaughter charge. that starts at 30 years. you have to look forward to sentencing. if the judge wants to, he can do it consecutively. he can put her in jail for life. jurors are unlikely to give a
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capital murder. they don't like to kill people. >> massa, you and i were talking about this. some of the possibilities this could be extended more. 25 minutes, we expect to hear the final bits of words from the prosecution action and then we're done and the charge should be given to the jury. what could happen other than that? >> i think the judge is very concerned. we've had over 100 witnesses, 400 pieces of evidence, the jury is exhausted. we've been at it for over six weeks. regardless of what's going to happen, the judge is going to keep this going on track. a little point about what happened yesterday, i think the defense was only effective if you don't have any sort of long term memory and if you're capable of forgetting the last 30 days and all the evidence presented by the prosecution. like karen, i agree, the state has proven manslaughter here because nothing does explain her
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behavior in those 31 days, the lack of reporting this, so i think regardless, she is going to go to jail. she's going to face some prison time. >> thank you both very much. we'll be watching that starting in about 24 minutes. the u.s. coast guard says one person is dead and six others are missing after a 100 foot fishing boat capsized off the coast of mexico's baja pi peninsula. the coast guard says the americans are from san francisco and washington state. the mexican navy is assisting the coast guard with the search. crews are cleaning up along the historic yellowstone river after hundreds of thousands of gallons of oil spilled in the river. the spill is a result of a rupture in an exxon mobil pipeline. george is live. george, you were showing us how it's affected some of the
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greenery there? >> yeah, you look at the weeds along the river and wind up with a handful of crude oil on your hand. it's coating the whole river bank here as the yellowstone river floods. they believe what happened is debris from that flooding caused the rupture in the pipeline. that happened late friday night near laurel, montana. this is about 140 miles down river from yellowstone national park so the park is not affected. how much of this river bank is affected by the spill? exxon says they believe it's only about a ten mile area. the governor of montana disputes that. he says they're going to have to get out and examine every inch of the river bank to decide how extensive the damage is, the epa has about 50 emergency response workers here to assess the extent of the spill. exxon has a couple hundred people involved in cleanup
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efforts. they've been putting out containment booms to sop up some of the oil. they'll be reassessing the placement of some of those booms today. the next steps they need to take in this cleanup effort. exxon says about 1,000 barrels of oil, 42,000 gallons of crude were spilled during the pipeline break. that it was caught fairly rapidly. the pipeline shut off, but again, the governor of montana wants a second opinion on all of that and wants to see exactly how much damage is being done, how many oil birds, how many oil creditor kriters are along the river bank. >> it doesn't make to affect what is such a beautiful part of the country. thank you, george lewis. police in memphis, one of their officers and another person died after a shooting in
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the busy district. officer warren was one of several officers responding to a call at the doubletree hotel. the other victim has not been identified as of yet. police arrested the suspected gunman. police had responded to a disturbance call earlier in the day involving the suspected shooter but let him go. with the august 2nd debt ceiling quickly approaching, okay, as nbc kristen welker is live at the white house, she's looking at that possibility and may cause people to scratch their head when they hear that, because it normally has to go through congress. >> reporter: that's right. this is an idea that's being talked about. there's no indication that the president is seriously considering this idea. i think it's an idea being talked about amongst some circles in d.c. some people are wondering if the
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president can bypass congress and essentially tell the treasury to keep on borrowing if congress can't work out a deal on the debt ceiling by that august 2nd deadline. he would be able to do that through a provision of the 14th anticipated of the constitution which says the public debt of the united states "shall not be questioned." so again, this is just an idea that some people are talking about, wondering if this is a possibility to resolve this issue. however, when senator john cornyn was asked about this issue over the weekend, here's what he had to say. take a listen. >> that's crazy talk. it's not acceptable for congress and the president not to do their job and to say somehow the president has the authority to then basically do this by himself. >> reporter: one of the main sticking points here is taxes. senator john cornyn also said in that interview that he admits there might need to be revisions to the tax code however he
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insisted no new taxes. he's saying that because some democrats are proposing why don't we roll back tax credits to big oil companies, to corporate jet companies, and republicans are saying we're not going to support anything that looks like a tax hike. democrats and republicans still about $1 trillion apart on this issue. again, there's that august 2nd deadline which some economists are saying if we reach that point and haven't come to a deal on this debt ceiling issue, it could be catastrophic for the united states, for other economies around the world. that's why there's so much urgency here. last week, president obama took a tough tone with congress, said they weren't working hard enough to get a deal. in the wake of those comments, senators cancelled their scheduled vacation for this week. they will be back here tomorrow to work out a deal. >> that big debate about who is going to be working this holiday weekend and who is not. what's the president doing on this holiday? >> today it's all about the 4th of july. he's going to host a 4th of july
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celebration for military members, their families, some of his staffers. there's going to be a barbecue, a ceremony. we do expect the president to make some remarks. what 4th of july celebration would be complete without fireworks. there will be fireworks later on this evening. tomorrow, the fireworks over the debt ceiling will resume, there's no doubt about that. >> it looks like the weather is cooperating behind you so far for some fireworks. we'll see how that goes. >> we'll keep our fingers crossed. sex assault case that's drawn international anger now near total collapse. the french big wig accused of raping a chamber maiden joys a great weekend.
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>> dominique strauss-kahn enjoyed freedom over the weekend here in new york city while he's still charged for sex crimes. the focus seems to be his accuser, the hotel maid who admits that she lied about her past. jeff ralston is here. >> what has he been up to? >> he hit the town this weekend. he went from an ankle bracelet to basically complete freedom. he can go wherever he wants in this country, yet he has decided to remain in new york, near the scene of the alleged crime. we're learning more about the case and the hotel maid's story. within hours of his release, dominique strauss-kahn flashed a smile and took his wife to dinner. the man who just weeks ago sat in a cell at rikers as an accused sexual predator is out and about. chased by the media through city streets. he dined at this exclusive
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restaurant reportedly racking up a $700 tab. saturday he had lunch at the museum of mard earn art before returning to his townhouse. new details why the case against him may be collapsing. the hotel maid who accused him of sexual assault repeatedly lied. after the encounter according to "the new york times," she called her boyfriend in prison telling him, "don't worry, this guy has a lot of money, i know what i'm doing." >> it is a fact that the victim here made some mistakes, but that doesn't mean she's not a rape victim. >> reporter: the maid still stands behind her story that strauss-kahn attacked her, but in a letter, prosecutors admit there are holes in her story. for example, she didn't report the attack as soon as it happened, as she first claimed. instead she proceeded to clean a nearby room and proceeded to
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return to suite 226. prosecutors say she also lied about her past, telling investigators as she cried, she had been the victim of a gang rape in her native guinea, later admitting she made it up and fabricated the details. >> any one lie would cause her credibility at issue. the problem is you have lie after lie, they are not just lies about her past but they are lies about what happened about this case. it's game over. >> reporter: the d.a. hasn't dropped the charges, but the experts say it's just a matter of time. >> as with every case, our office's commitment is to the truth and facts. that will govern how we proceed. >> reporter: before his arrest, dominique strauss-kahn was a contender for french president. in a new poll, 49% of voters
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would welcome him back to politics. he can't go back to france until the charges are settled. one other note, france's socialist party says it is unlikely that strauss-kahn will be a candidate for the 2012 presidential bid there. we'll tell you what happens. what's happening here is a little bit of egg on the face of the d.a. that they didn't catch this earlier. a lot of these charges will probably be released. the florida jury weighs the fate of a mother accused of killing her own daughter. we are live as the casey anthony trial moves closer to a verdict. we're watching that. for 25,000 miles, but... [ man ] there's never any seats for 25,000 miles. frustrating, isn't it? but that won't happen with the capital one venture card. you can book any airline anytime. hey, i just said that. after all, isn't traveling hard enough? ow. [ male announcer ] to get the flights you want, sign up for a venture card at capitalone.com.
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>> a lot of folks will be wearing red, white and blue on this independence day. a lot of folks want to see americans wearing this. this is called a battle saint bracelet. they were designed to give comfort to our troops overseas.
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you can see different saints on these different faces. i'm joined by the founder of battle saint.com. cynthia lamay. help me understand this. >> we have seven members of our family serving in the military. i wanted to do something to honor the service 6 all our men and women and give back. these bracelets were specifically designed around our kitchen table. with no vision, it would be as popular as it is to reflect specific saints relevant to the military, to provide a connection to those serving and to honor the men and women serving today. >> what are some of the saints that are on the faces of this bracelet? i know it may be difficult to see in that picture, but we did outline some of them? >> st. barbara is on this. st. barbara was beheaded and executed. at the moment of her excuse, the person that killed her was struck and killed by lightning. she is known to protect those
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who work with explosives. we have st. joseph who levitates so he's known to protect aviators. there's a unique story to every saint on this bracelet. you can read about all the saa t saints and why we included them. there are 12 faces on the small, 14 on the medium and 16 on the large. if you have a 16 face bracelet, you have a larger wrist, you'll have more saints. >> you have a very large number of family members in the military, involved in the military whchlt they saw these bracelets shall what has been the reaction of them as well as other troops? >> well, it was really the inspiration of listening. my son, gabe, just got back from some of the most dangerous regions of afghanistan. listening to my nieses and nephews and my children, it made
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me want to do something to show how much we appreciate the sacrifices they make. so we decided to make these bracelets. they've all worn them. they keep them on. they keep them with them when they're deployed. it gives them a sense of being connected to us, a sense of protection. we provide a donation to the intrepid fallen heroes fund so when they come back to the united states, if they need help, they can get that through the services of the intrepid. >> how far are you going with this? >> we've been overwhelmed. we have been endorsed by zac brown, the 2011 grammy winner. and zac brown is wearing the bracelet. the actors from the band of brothers are supporting the project and did an event for us at the los angeles uso. we're hoping to just keep doing as much as we can. the more bracelets we sell, the
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more donation we can make, the larger the donation to the intrepid fallen heroes fund. we have a facebook group that is a support wall. it's a place where people can tell their stories. there are heart breaking stories of people who have gotten notifications that their loved one has been killed. people who ask us to overnight bracelets who have died and want to put them on them before they're buried. we want to keep it going and provide that support group and honor of our service men and women. >> cynthia, great idea. our service members that serve abroad in the united states, mean so much to everybody. it's great that you tap into that emotion and commitment we have to them through these bracelets. >> thank you. casey anthony, arriving back in court. looking at live pictures at the moment. we are live inside the courtroom in orlando in just moments. the prosecution is expected to get the last word in closing arguments.
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>> developing right now on msnbc. court is supposed to get back in session any moment right now. the judge walked in as we watch the casey anthony murder trial. we saw casey anthony walk in five minutes ago. the prosecution getting the last word, after both sides gave closing arguments on sunday. let's listen in and watch right now. >> we of course, objecting to the court allowing them to now split up the arguments after the court had ruled previously that the only argument that could be split up would be the initial argument and not the rebuttal. i certainly want to, i guess, make sure that this is just not a second closing argument as opposed to a rebuttal, where, since mr. ashton, during his initial closing argument,
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actually covered quite a broad range of topics. and i wanted to raise and renew our objection to that. the remedy that they seek, they received when they objected, so that would be just our argument that we would like to lay out for your honor. >> if they exceed what rebuttal is, objection, just simply objection, improper rebuttal. it won't take long for a ruling. if it is rebuttal, that's what it's for. of course, at the very end, there's a little latitude to briefly tie it all up, but it is rebuttal and solely rebuttal. okay. let's return the jury.
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>> meg strikeler joining us right now. the jury is walking in. what do you make of what they were just discussing, meg? >> the discussion we just had, baez making sure every single upheld issue is preserved for the record. he made sure he said look, judge, i don't want ashton messing up on the rebuttal. they need to rebut only what i said in closing. i don't want to jump up and down and object like they did to me. i want to make sure you know what i'm up to when i do object. he's preparing the judge, should a verdict and/or ashton do something wrong, he would know what he's objecting to. he objected to the fact that byrden and ashton speak. he would prefer only one of them speak. i can feel the uncertainty here and the anticipation come across the street of this courtroom. wow, it's going to be a good day. i'm looking forward to the jury
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getting the deliberations later this afternoon. >> stay with us. >> ladies and gentlemen of the jury, did you heed all of my previous admonitions? state recognize the presence of the jury. does the defense? >> yes, sir, we do. >> rebuttal? >> good morning and happy 4th of july. we are both going to speak to you at this portion of our rebuttal portion of our argument. we're going to discuss different topics. i'm going to begin discussing the science in the case. defense counsel issued a very appropriate and aggressive attack upon the science, but i want to take a more measured and complex approach.
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science can't be understood by simplistic concepts or easy phrases. the best way to understand the science in this case is to look at it and first look at what scientists agree on, and then what they don't agree on. basically, the way it works is, it's up to you to decide with an expert as with any other witness what part of this testimony you believe or don't believe. and in a dispute between experts, it's up to you to decide which one you believe. you may reject both. you may find one more credible than the other because of experience or because of just what they said made sense. it's totally up to you to decide what you believe from what the experts have told you. i think it might be helpful to start out isolating these areas
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by subject matter. the first one i would like to start talking about is the experts you heard on the subjects of forensic anthropology. you essentially heard from this case by dr. valia, dr. uts was the gentleman who first took custody of the remains who removed the duct tape and talked about that. you heard from dr. schultz, who is the forensic anthopologist who is a contract consultant. you heard from dr. michael
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warren who is the director of the laboratory at the university of florida and you heard from dr. warner spits who was the defense's expert called on that subject. now, what do all of them agree on? in the bones that tells us anything? they all agree there is no traumatic injury to the bones, there's no breaks, fractures, no injurieses, there's no nothing. just looking at the bones, they all agree that there's nothing to tell us how caylee anthony died. everyone agrees to that. the other thing they all agree about that is significant in this case is that because of the way the human body decomposes, there are two parts of the head that should not be together.
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that is the mandible and the skull. dr. spits even said, when he picked up the skull, the mandible would stay on the ground. they are not connected. once they decompose, there's nothing to keep them together. what they all also agree about in this case is when caylee anthony's body was found, the skull and the mandible were still in what they refer to as anatomical position. where they disagree is on why that was the case. dr. uts, dr. valia, dr. schultz and dr. warren all told you that the only thing that could have kept that mandible in anatomical position is the tape. remember, dr. warren told you.
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he is, i would submit to you based on what you heard, the most experienced of the four on forensic anthropology and skulls. the only other time he's ever seen a fully skeltonnized body with the mandible and skull in anatomical position was in sarajevo in the skull of a person who was duct taped. they have told you in their opinion, which again, you may accept or you may reject, that that tape had to have been on that skull before she decomposed. dr. spits presented you with an alternative. his alternative was that someone came by at some later point for some unknown reason and reached down and picked up the skull off
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the ground, then picked up the mandible, took them someplace, put them back together and duct taped them to hold them in place and then returned them to the scene. you heard the cross examination of dr. spits about that scenario. it is up to you to judge whether that scenario is reasonable or makes any sense at all. when i pointed out to dr. spits that his scenario of the skull being returned was inconsistent with the -- first of all, the deterioration of the duct tape and second of all, most importantly, remember i asked him about, well, the person would not just have had to put the skull back, they would have had to draped pieces of hair
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over the skull, and remember what his response to that was? his response to that was to accuse the medical examiner personnel of doing it. and then when i showed him the photograph of the skull at the scene undisturbed with the hair in exactly the same place, he accused the sheriff's personnel of doing that. it is up to you to decide which of those two expert opinions you find more credible. i submit to you based on the evidence that you heard, that dr. spits' version of events is incredible, non-credible. i'll get, later in my remarks, that it actually is also
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inconsistent with the very theory that the defense has been presenting to you in the other parts of their argument. we'll get to that a little bit later. the other area that they disagreed on was the appropriateness and necessity of sawing open caylee's skull. dr. spits told you that, in direct, that it was a violation of protocol for dr. garavolia not to have sawed open caylee's skull and that it was in his words sloppy. on cross examination, however, when challenged, even with his own book to demonstrate where that protocol was set down, he was unable to do so.
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when asked if there was any protocol he was aware of dealing with skeletal remains that required such an act, he admitted there wasn't. in response to that, we called dr. michael warren back again, the director of the human identification laboratory to tell you that in fact it is not protocol. in fact it is contraindicated to open a skull unnecessarily. there may be times when there may be some particular artifact that cannot be otherwise appreciated, but generally, no, skulls are not opened. it is not sloppy to fail to do so. in fact, it is dangerous to open the skull, particularly in a child, because, when you do that, the skull breaks as dr. spits did. remember i asked dr. spits, you broke the skull, didn't you.
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he was like i don't remember that. i showed him the photograph where the skull is fractured. he didn't seem to remember. i would submit to you that based upon what you have heard in this case, that dr. spits' claim that the autopsy was done improperly is not credible. the other issue that they disagree on is this issue of the supposed, and this was sort of my shorthand term, but brain dust or brain residue. he referred to it that it's like dust in the skull. he says that there was this residue in the skull that he could tell by looking at it was remnants of the decomposition of caylee's brain and because of the position that he could tell that that's -- that the skull was on its side. he acknowledged that he took a sample of it, that he doesn't
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know if it's ever been tested or not. we brought in dr. bruce goldberger from the university of florida who washed the inside of the skull, tested it and told you that there is no decomposition product inside that skull. so he did the test that dr. spits said he didn't do. said he couldn't do because he didn't have a laboratory, and we now know that it's not what dr. spits thought it was. so dr. spits' whole theory of that proving that the skull was on its side has now been disproven. you'll also recall in cross examination, i pointed out to dr. spits that the arrangement of the hair mass was not consistent with his theory of how the skull decomposed. in fact, remember how we talked about, if the skull was on the side, the hair mass is going to fall to the side, it's not going to fall evenly, blah-blah-blah.
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you can look at the photographs. you will have them back in the jury room and you will see. i also asked dr. spits an interesting question that counsel somewhat criticized me for asking. he acknowledged that in determining the manner of death, it is absolutely essential for a forensic pathologist to know about the events leading up to the death or disappearance of the victim. it's common sense. he said yes, do you have know that. you have to know as much as you can about that. so i asked dr. spits, well, what did you know? what information were you given? what research did you do? he said well, i went to the house. what do you remember from the house? just that there was a pool. that's all he remembered. well, what did you know about the events leading up to her disappearance, et cetera? well, there was something about a nanny. that's all he knew. i would submit to you that his
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fund of information about this case is not sufficient to make his opinion credible in this case. that in fact, the evidence in this case shows that the medical, legal investigation of this case was thorough and complete, and that the testimony of dr. garavolia and dr. uts and dr. schultz is credible and worthy of your belief. now, let's talk next about t theethe entmological evidence. it wasn't huge, but let's talk about it. you heard from two entmologists. he's been practicing 30 years. he told you two opinions,
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essentially. one about the car and one about the scene. you heard from dr. timothy huntington who has been practicing in his field since he received his ph.d. in 2008. a very bright young man. i don't mean to denigrate his education or his sincerity, but the fact of the matter is, is you have to decide who you find more believable, someone who has been practicing in the field for 25 or 30 years, or someone who has been practicing in the field for three. but again, there are things they agree on. they agree on this very important fact, that the evidence at the scene where caylee's body was found indicates that the body initially decomposed in some
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other location from which the early colonizing flies were restricted. that's what dr. haskell told you. wherever caylee's body was for the first few days of decomposition, those early flies could not get to her. then she was taken and dumped there in that -- in the woods, in that swampy area that you heard skridescribed by so many people. they both agreed that occurred sometime in june or july in 2008. they agree. what dr. haskell said about the scene, dr. huntington agrees with. where they diverge is in the single issue of whether the trunk would have excluded the
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early cole onni colonizing flie. dr. haskell has told you, in his opinion, the trunk is a source that could have excluded the early colonizing flies. dr. huntington who candidly admits that he has never in his career dealt with a dead body in a trunk in a real world situation, but based upon some experiments, applying conditions completely different than in this case, remember that's the pigs in the blanket comment that we made. that based upon that experiment, and that experiment alone, he renders the opinion that the trunk would not have excluded the early colonizers. it is up to you to decide which
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expert is more credible, which to believe, or to believe neither. it is completely up to you. the important thing is on what they agree. that that body decomposed someplace else, that it was somehow, either by being wrapped or being stored, was in a situation where the early flies could not get to it, and that from june or july through december, it sat there in the woods. on that, they agree. all right. let's go to the area next of the chloroform. mr. baez had a nice big poster about that. had all the experts or people that talked about chloroform. what is important to understand in evaluating the various people who testified about chloroform is to understand first what they
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were testing and second, what their perspective was. now, remember, mr. baez made a good deal of comment on thea aa adjectives used. one thing, you have to understand in assessing those adjectives. dr. vass is used to looking at environmental samples. car exhaust, environmental conditions, industrial, but, you know, all different areas.
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he told you the amount was surprising because of what his experience is. dr. vass' experience is similar. what he's looking at is examples from dead bodies. he's seen many of them. he told you based upon what he has seen in decomposing bodies and he has occasionally seen chloroform in those cases, in very small amounts, but compared to that, what he saw was shockingly high. but taking away the adjectives, the important thing is to say what did they actually find. dr. wise and dr. vass told you that the trunk sample they found in the can was somewhere in the low parts per million range. dr. weiss gave you an ideal explanation of quantification. he said quantification would not have meant anything in this case.
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even if you quantify the amount of chloroform being given off by the carpet, it doesn't mean anything in terms of the amount of chloroform that was there a month before, because chloroform is volatile. it evaporates, so it wouldn't mean anything. but he does say, dr. vass says, based upon the qualitative analysis and the comparison between the amount of chloroform and the limits of his machine, it was somewhere in the low parts per million range. dr. rickenbach from the fbi tested a similar sample from a can but tested the actual spare tire cover in this box. remember, he received it in this box, not sealed, not in a can, not in plastic. in air permeable carton.
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what he told you was that he actually found chloroform, the technical chloroform in that. remember he told you he couldn't believe he found it, because chloroform is a volatile and this is not sealed. so he said the fact that he found anything on that was pretty amazing. but remember what he told you was that he found a much greater amount of chloroform in the sealed can. remember, i had him put some numbers on a board and it was in terms of percentages of the control. the control was 100 parts per million. in this item, i think he put it at .08% of the control. in the can, it was 5% of the control. again, he has said, and we will tell you, that is not a
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quantification. it is not a precise quantification. it is not intended to be a precise quantification. what's interesting about it is that the rough estimate puts it in the low parts per million. the same thing that dr. vass found. now, to dr. rickenbach who is used to looking at chloroform in its liquid form, that wasn't a lot, but he told you, this is the first time i've ever found chloroform in any kind of solid object. every time i've looked for chloroform, it's been in a liquid form, adulterated form. even he said he found detectable amounts of chloroform coming from the carpet in casey anthony's car. nothing he had ever seen before. that's the significant thing about these witnesses. is they all told you the same
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thing. this is the first time we've seen this. actual detectable amounts of chloroform coming from a carpet. remember what they told you, dr. rickenbach agreed. the amount of chloroform in these items is far less than the amount of chloroform that would have been in that trunk a month before because chloroform is volatile. it evaporates. it fills the space until fresh air comes in. remember, this car was aired out by the anthony family for hours on the 15th going into the 16th. so the chloroform that would have been there before it was opened up, when it was at the tow yard was far greater than anything these people found. ladies and gentlemen, i would submit to you that there has been absolutely no evidence to explain where it came from or why. >> objection.
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>> overruled. >> dr. sigmund who was the gentleman from ucf that did his initial testing of the sample, he told you that he tested the trunk four days after that item was removed. it had been gone for four days. yet even four days later, he was able to detect, even with his equipment, which he said is not as good as what dr. vass uses, it doesn't capture as much, even he was able to find detectable amounts of chloroform in the trunk of that car, which shouldn't have been there. there shouldn't have been any chloroform in the trunk of that car, but it was there. dr. sigmund also told you something that was very interesting. he told you that while chloroform can be created by
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incidental contact between chlorine bleach and organic materials, that that doesn't happen in a vacuum. when that does happen, other compounds are created. those compounds have not been found in this case. all that's been found is chloroform. no chlorine. remember i asked dr. ferten, there's no bleach stains on that spare tire cover, is there? no, there's not. the issue was brought out that some cleaning products have small amounts of chloroform in them. i asked dr. ferten, were any of the other constituent components of cleaning products found? no, they weren't. all that was found in examination of that carpet and that spare tire cover were the components of decomposition